SOCIAL: Fwd: [cdscommunity] Noe Valley studio apt available

Erin Milnes erin.milnes at comcast.net
Thu May 3 11:28:58 PDT 2012


I have a couple of thoughts I'd like to share.

 

First is that this thread has reminded me how difficult online
'conversation' is. I meant "east bay all the way" in a completely
lighthearted, playful way (I mostly liked the sound of the words), which
would have been apparent in person or if people knew me. I guess emoticons
are the only way to convey tone in the absence of actual faces. I'll try not
to write anything if I don't have time to fully explain what I mean. So here
we go...

 

To Adrian's musings: There are definitely many cities that coexist (with
various degrees of success) in one geographical space. When I first moved to
SF from Chicago, I was frequently surprised by how small it seemed. I kept
running into the same people -- the checker from the Good Earth Market in
line with me at the Roxie, the wine expert from BevMo in my juror pool. It
was rather comforting, actually, after feeling kind of anonymous in big ol'
Chi. 

 

SF is a relatively small city, but what was really small was the community I
had entered within it. I was running into a primarily self-selected group of
people who shared some or many of my interests, political views, habits,
shopping preferences. This happens to some extent in all cities, spheres
within spheres. And depending on your lifestyle, you may not intersect or
interact meaningfully with many people outside your community. 

 

Now that people chose their communities and aren't simply stuck in a town,
church, livelihood, cuisine, we aren't forced to deal compassionately with
as many difficult, different people ("Yes, he's an asshole, but he's our
asshole"). Aside from family and religious groups, modern US life doesn't
include much multigenerational interaction, for example. Are we losing our
faculty for tolerance as a result? 

 

These intersections are certainly also impacted by a city's or
neighborhood's diversity (in income, culture, religion, politics, age, not
just 'race'). And even when different groups live in close proximity, they
may not know each other. I didn't see a lot of meaningful interaction, for
example, between the white 20- and 30-somethings living west of Mission with
the Latino families living east. And don't get me started on the isolation
of the Marina :) (See the emoticon. Comment meant in lighthearted way. Not
meant to offend Marina residents or ex-residents (except maybe you, Chuck,
poke, poke.)

 

One big difference I have experienced between living in SF and Oakland is
the level of integration. Unless you live in Rockridge or the hills, you end
up rubbing up against folks with different cultures. One very specific
difference is that in SF the African American working class and poor
population seems more segregated than here, even with the majority living in
East Oakland, where I and my peers never go. Bernal, where I lived for 9
years, was fairly diverse and I loved that about it, but in my neighborhood
here (Ivy Hill the realtors call it) there are section 8 apt buildings as
well as duplexes and single family homes. Owners, renters, black, white,
Chinese, Filipino, kids, older people, middle class, people on assistance,
blue collar, white collar, car people, bike and bus people. 

 

I've experienced more crime (both property and violent) here, too, which is
very painful. Oakland doesn't let you forget about the people outside your
chosen community, that's for sure. Chuck and I joke about the "Keepin' it
real in Oakland" sentiment. You've probably run into that slogan from the
mostly white artist/hipster Oaklandish types I was referencing earlier, who
can get a bit overzealous in their civic pride, particularly if they are
'new converts.' 

 

I'm uncertain about the amount one should stretch oneself or one's children
in the pursuit of diversity -- in interacting with people who by default are
not on your side or bumping up against people whose worldviews are fairly
incompatible with your own. Some diversity is absolutely necessary to be an
informed citizen and an ethical, compassionate person, but we all need a
safe place to call home.

 

 

Peace,

Erin

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: social-bounces at lists.deeptrouble.com
[mailto:social-bounces at lists.deeptrouble.com] On Behalf Of Adrian Cotter
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 11:17 PM
To: Social Deep
Subject: Re: SOCIAL: Fwd: [cdscommunity] Noe Valley studio apt available

 

These are just musings, rather than answers or arguments:

 

During the dot com boom, out looking for a better job, I asked my

interviewer: "Why did you start this company?" His answer I still find

somewhat shocking: "you know, to live the San Francisco dream: to

become a millionaire." The interview was ironically (for me) just a

couple blocks from City Lights Books -- perhaps the locus of MY San

Francisco dream, you know: culture, intellect, beat poets, north beach

tangling with chinatown, books!

 

I suspect there are other dreams too. Which recalls to mind a book The

City and the City, a speculative noir novel, where two cities live

physically intertwined but politically, personally, and culturally

entirely separate, actively unseeing of each other. It struck me as I

read more that it wasn't actually that crazy of an idea -- I think we

go along unseeing of a lot of parts of the cities we live in. San

Francisco, is still a pretty diverse place (for the moment), but it

can certainly be hard to tell depending on the vantage point.

 

I think it also bears thinking on - is San Francisco alone in this as

a city. It seems on quick reflection that it is the general arc of

American cities these days: the poor and middle class being pushed

out. San Francisco just has its own peculiar pressures living as it

does in the current moment alongside America's current economic

engine, along with a cultural cache that only a few other American

cities match.

 

I don't go to the Easy Bay often not because I don't enjoy it, but

because I don't go ANYwhere all that much. Except for the fact that

I'd have to cross the Bay for work, I'm not sure I'd be that much

different in Oakland or the East Bay. I like exploring where I'm at.

As it is, I have a hard enough time seeing my friends in San

Francisco, and I don't think that would be much different in the East

Bay.

 

But -- at least for the moment -- I'm still living my intellectual

dream in San Francisco :)

 

Adrian

 

On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 1:26 PM, chandra faulkner

<chachachandra at gmail.com> wrote:

> When I moved to the Bay Area 7 years ago, it was to accept a job that
would

> have afforded me to live on either side of the bridge, and I chose
Oakland.

>  I love San Francisco, but Oakland felt like home to me.  If I could to
have

> the space I have but in the city, I would still stay here.

> 

> I'm sure many in the city feel the same way - regardless of their
financial

> bracket, they feel at home in San Francisco and are willing to make it
work

> even if it means struggling.

> 

> Lifestyles are very different over here and over there.  Both are good,
both

> are amendable if you really want them to be, and they're just a matter of

> preference.  Let's not get all bent out of shape about who gets to live

> where.  A lot of us are where we are simply because we like it.

> 

> Great debate, though!  I believe this started out as a posting for an

> apartment for rent.  Hope that info was passed along and that the turnover

> is drama free.

> 

> Chandra

> 

> 

> On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 1:01 PM, William Craven <wkcraven at gmail.com> wrote:

>> 

>> To Deep's "We need to build more housing", and to Tom's mention of

>> "thousand-foot skyscrapers":

>> 

>> SF needs to ramp up the conversation about Density, and increasing
housing

>> supply vertically.

>> 

>> Political efforts to mandate affordable housing is less likely to be an

>> efficient driver of affordable housing supply than simply increasing the

>> amount of living space, at any price, on the very small chunk of land
that

>> is SF. See also: Washington, DC, where zoning keeps all buildings lower
than

>> the Washington monument or something.

>> 

>> SF NIMBYs like myself need to decide if we're OK tinkering with the

>> skyline, pleasant sightlines, and homey textures which currently define
the

>> city.

>> 

>> I haven't read it yet, but I think Matthew Yglesias' recent short e-book

>> The Rent is Too Damn High comes at things from this angle.

>> 

>> Will

>> 

>> On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 12:02 PM, Karen Nemsick <knemsick at yahoo.com>
wrote:

>>> 

>>> So my intent was not to say "nah nah East Bay Rules!"  It was more to

>>> make that point that while I would love to still be living in SF, I just

>>> can't (or won't) pay those prices.  In comparing to the East Bay, I was

>>> saying "it doesn't have to be that way in SF."  I think allowing
ourselves

>>> to accept that $1700 for a studio apartment without a kitchen is okay,
is

>>> giving in to the spiraling costs of living in the city.  And now here's

>>> where I'll step off the pier and initiate a bigger conversation:

>>> Who gets to live in San Francisco?

>>> 

>>> If you work in tech or banking, you can probably live in SF.  If you're
a

>>> teacher, nonprofit worker, retail employee, service industry worker or
even

>>> a City employee, odds are that you can't afford to live in San
Francisco.

>>> Is this right?  You could say that this is just a capital economy at
work

>>> and prices are driven by demand.  But do we really want a City full of
30-40

>>> year old singles and couples without kids with incomes over $100,000?
Don't

>>> we want a city of varying professionals, of different ages, with kids
and

>>> without, with lots of money and with not so much money.

>>> 

>>> So is the big question- "Who gets to live in SF?" OR "Who do we want to

>>> be able to live in SF?"

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> ________________________________

>>> From: Amandeep Jawa <deep at deeptrouble.com>

>>> To: Social Deep <social at deeptrouble.com>

>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 2, 2012 11:19 AM

>>> 

>>> Subject: Re: SOCIAL: Fwd: [cdscommunity] Noe Valley studio apt available

>>> 

>>> Erin (& others)-

>>> 

>>> Sorry, now that I've read your post I realize that you did have

>>> interesting things to say & that calling it "all noise" was a mistake.

>>> After I read "East Bay all the way" and Karen's "After 18 years in SF I
just

>>> couldn't stomach the rents anymore." I PRESUMED that this was one of
those

>>> "chip on the shoulder" conversations.  That being said - I do think it
was

>>> heading that way.  I and I'm guessing many others took one look at "East
Bay

>>> all the way" & turned off.

>>> 

>>> Since I good conversation is being had, I'll just say my two bits:

>>> - I've been alarmed at SF's rents and cost of homeownership for as long

>>> as I have lived here & it is one reason I stay politically involved.  We

>>> need to build more housing.

>>> - There is cyclical nature to this struggle as booms come & go & we are

>>> in the midst of another tech boom.  One should not assume however that
that

>>> means that things return to "normal" between booms, they may very well

>>> spiral upwards :-(

>>> - I spend a significant amount of time worrying that SF will become a

>>> place where only people like me can afford it. That is not why I moved
here.

>>> - I don't want to live in the East Bay, but it would probably be my

>>> second or third choice if FORCED to leave SF. I am glad however it is
there

>>> & that I know many wonderful people who live there.

>>> - I go to the East Bay often, but it is absolutely true that it is

>>> psychologically farther than it is in terms of transit reality & so I
often

>>> don't.

>>> 

>>> 'deep

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> ----------------------------------

>>> Amandeep Jawa

>>> ----------------------------------

>>> deep AT deeptrouble DOT com

>>> 937 Valencia St.

>>> San Francisco, CA 94110-2320

>>> 

>>> personal: http://www.deeptrouble.com

>>> political: http://www.sflcv.org

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> On May 2, 2012, at 11:09 AM, jen schradie wrote:

>>> 

>>> > Funny, during one of the May Day General Strike marches yesterday in

>>> > Oakland I talked to a reporter for the New York Times magazine for a
half

>>> > hour who is doing a feature story on "Oakland" - and his perception
seemed

>>> > very NY/Manhattan based - i.e. how could you live there with the
murder rate

>>> > so high? and what business would want to invest in downtown Oakland
after

>>> > Occupy?

>>> >

>>> > #stereotypes go in all different directions.

>>> >

>>> > I consider myself much more of a Bay Area resident than an East Bay or

>>> > Oakland resident - I go to school in Berkeley, used to live in SF (and
love

>>> > it), Chris works in Silicon Valley. One giant love fest for me.

>>> >

>>> > --------------------------- j e n s c h r a d i e

>>> >

>>> > From: erin.milnes at comcast.net

>>> > To: allegra.hirschman at gmail.com; deep at deeptrouble.com

>>> > Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 11:01:35 -0700

>>> > CC: Social at lists.deeptrouble.com

>>> > Subject: Re: SOCIAL: Fwd: [cdscommunity] Noe Valley studio apt

>>> > available

>>> >

>>> > Thanks, Allegra. Very helpful insights.

>>> >

>>> > Deep, the conversation was not all noise at all. Karen and I offered

>>> > concrete examples of what you can get for your rent dollar in the East
Bay.

>>> >

>>> > I had no idea until this thread that rents had gotten so high. I love

>>> > SF, but it apparently is turning into Manhattan as far as who can live

>>> > there. Maybe it's only a problem in the 'happening' parts of town .
what's a

>>> > studio in Exelsior go for? I'm not sure we are going to stay in the
Bay Area

>>> > at all, given the high cost of living and crappy schools, but for now

>>> > Oakland is our best choice.

>>> >

>>> > My point with "East Bay all the way" is that if you want to live in
the

>>> > Bay Area and affordability is a prime concern, then the East Bay is
where

>>> > you should look. Of course the East Bay has many fab qualities in
addition

>>> > to greater affordability, and SF has wonderful qualities that might

>>> > encourage people to strain their budget to live there.

>>> >

>>> > When I lived in SF I had lots of friends and some family in the East

>>> > Bay, so I was over here all the time. But I was the exception among my
SF

>>> > friends. There's no question that it's very tough to pry most SF
people out

>>> > of the city even for a visit. I don't know whether that's fear
of/discomfort

>>> > with the unknown, laziness, snobbishness, simple habit, something
else, all

>>> > of the above. I believe it is this reluctance to cross the bay and the

>>> > resulting implication/perception that the East Bay is not worthy of
their

>>> > time that causes many East Bay people, especially Oakland
hipster/artist

>>> > types, to have a chip on their shoulder about SF.

>>> >

>>> >

>>> >

>>> >

>>> > From: Allegra Hirschman [mailto:allegra.hirschman at gmail.com]

>>> > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 10:07 AM

>>> > To: Amandeep Jawa

>>> > Cc: Erin Milnes; Social at lists.deeptrouble.com

>>> > Subject: Re: SOCIAL: Fwd: [cdscommunity] Noe Valley studio apt

>>> > available

>>> >

>>> > Hey all,

>>> >

>>> >

>>> > I think this conversation is very telling of a major tension in this

>>> > city that most of us are uncomfortable discussing - the fact that
basically

>>> > only rich people can live here.  I have seen this tension building as

>>> > housing advertisements on boards around the city are consistently
defaced by

>>> > people who are outraged by the rent.

>>> >

>>> > Even if it is all relative, I am upset by anyone reffering to this as

>>> > "cheap."  Someone earning minimum wage does not even bring in 1700 a
month.

>>> >

>>> > I am also unclear on why saying the east bay is affordable is

>>> > "denigrating" unless us SFers are just that programmed by our 8 dollar

>>> > heirloom coffee beans to believe that something being reasonably
priced

>>> > makes it less than.

>>> >

>>> > I don't think we can blame the person renting this studio at what is

>>> > sadly, market value, for the greater issues here.  I know I am very

>>> > concerned that SF has the lowest percentage of children in any U.S.
City and

>>> > even though I always thought I would fight like hell to raise my kids
here,

>>> > even if i can swing it, I am not sure if I want them to only interact
with

>>> > children of the rich.

>>> >

>>> > Deep- I appreciate you trying to keep the peace in the bay divides,
but

>>> > I couldn't keep my mouth shut.

>>> >

>>> > Allegra

>>> >

>>> > On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Amandeep Jawa <deep at deeptrouble.com>

>>> > wrote:

>>> > Folks -

>>> >

>>> > This conversation is all noise. It sheds little light, and it us

>>> > difgicult for SFers to respond without sounding like we're denigrating
the

>>> > East Bay.

>>> >

>>> > Yes. There are many upsides to leaving on either side of the Bay.
There

>>> > are challenges to both.

>>> >

>>> > 'deep

>>> >

>>> > Sent from my iPhone

>>> >

>>> > On May 2, 2012, at 8:46 AM, "Erin Milnes" <erin.milnes at comcast.net>

>>> > wrote:

>>> >

>>> > I agree - East Bay all the way. If we rented out our Oakland 2 BR, 1
BA

>>> > duplex with beautiful garden & deck, 10-min walk from Lake Merritt
we'd

>>> > maybe get $1700.

>>> >

>>> > I haven't looked at SF rents in years, but when I left Bernal in 2005,

>>> > the 3BR house I lived in wasn't going for anything comparable to this
(maybe

>>> > $2100?), and of course it was much harder to find roommates then, than
in

>>> > the pre-millennial boom.  Have rents gone up this much all over SF, or
is it

>>> > just certain neighborhoods?

>>> >

>>> > Also, I didn't know that it was legal to rent an apartment without a

>>> > stove.

>>> >

>>> > From: social-bounces at lists.deeptrouble.com

>>> > [mailto:social-bounces at lists.deeptrouble.com] On Behalf Of Karen
Nemsick

>>> > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 8:01 AM

>>> > To: ellisafeinstein at yahoo.com; manish at champsee.com

>>> > Cc: Social at lists.deeptrouble.com

>>> > Subject: Re: SOCIAL: Fwd: [cdscommunity] Noe Valley studio apt

>>> > available

>>> >

>>> > We have a craftsman house in Berkeley with yard, creek and storage
shed

>>> > for $1925/mo. After 18 years in SF I just couldn't stomach the rents

>>> > anymore.

>>> >

>>> > Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android

>>> >

>>> > From: Manish Champsee <manish at champsee.com>;

>>> > To: Ellisa Feinstein <ellisafeinstein at yahoo.com>;

>>> > Cc: Deep social <Social at lists.deeptrouble.com>;

>>> > Subject: Re: SOCIAL: Fwd: [cdscommunity] Noe Valley studio apt

>>> > available

>>> > Sent: Wed, May 2, 2012 6:05:33 AM

>>> >

>>> > It's actually pretty cheap..if you know anyone looking, I'd tell them

>>> > to jump on it.  A friend has a studio in India Basin that is pet
friendly

>>> > that he's asking $1400 and has people willing to write a check site
unseen.

>>> >

>>> > Manish

>>> >

>>> > On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 10:25 PM, Ellisa Feinstein

>>> > <ellisafeinstein at yahoo.com> wrote:

>>> > Wow. $1700 for a studio without a full kitchen. These rents are
getting

>>> > dang crazy!

>>> >

>>> > From: Amy Muller <amymuller at gmail.com>

>>> > To: Social Social <social at deeptrouble.com>

>>> > Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 4:27 PM

>>> > Subject: SOCIAL: Fwd: [cdscommunity] Noe Valley studio apt available

>>> >

>>> > FYI

>>> >

>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------

>>> > From: Susan Alexander <salexandersf at gmail.com>

>>> > Date: Tue, May 1, 2012 at 3:58 PM

>>> > Subject: [cdscommunity] Noe Valley studio apt available

>>> > To: CDS listserv <cdscommunity at yahoogroups.com>

>>> >

>>> >

>>> > Hi,

>>> > I'm looking for a new tenant for my sunny, spacious studio apartment

>>> > with beautiful views on Hill Street.

>>> >

>>> > Large, cheerful studio apartment with deck and direct garden access.

>>> > Full bath, carpet, two large walk-in closets. Minimal kitchen with
half

>>> > fridge, hot plate, and toaster oven. Great neighbors. Easy street
parking

>>> > and Muni access. Walking distance to Castro and to 24th Street.

>>> > No pets. No smoking.

>>> >

>>> > Available July 1

>>> > $1700/month plus utilities

>>> >

>>> > Please share this with your networks. I would love to get some friend

>>> > of friend in there, so I'll wait before I post on Craigslist.

>>> > __._,_.___

>>> > Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post | Start a New

>>> > Topic

>>> > Messages in this topic (1)

>>> > RECENT ACTIVITY:

>>> > Visit Your Group

>>> >

>>> > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest . Unsubscribe . Terms of Use

>>> > .

>>> >

>>> > __,_._,___

>>> >

>>> >

>>> >

>>> > --

>>> >  ___

>>> > {o,o}

>>> > |)__)

>>> > -"-"-

>>> >

>>> > _______________________________________________

>>> > Social mailing list

>>> > Social at lists.deeptrouble.com

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>>> >

>>> >

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>>> >

>>> >

>>> >

>>> >

>>> > --

>>> > Manish Champsee

>>> > Champsee Solutions

>>> >

>>> > Websites that Work for You

>>> > Technology Consulting for Non-Profits and Small Business

>>> >

>>> > http://www.champsee.com

>>> > manish at champsee.com

>>> > 415-894-0878 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting            415-894-0878

>>> >   end_of_the_skype_highlighting

>>> >

>>> >

>>> > _______________________________________________

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>>> 

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>> 

>> 

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