When I moved to the Bay Area 7 years ago, it was to accept a job that would have afforded me to live on either side of the bridge, and I chose Oakland. I love San Francisco, but Oakland felt like home to me. If I could to have the space I have but in the city, I would still stay here.<div>
<br></div><div>I'm sure many in the city feel the same way - regardless of their financial bracket, they feel at home in San Francisco and are willing to make it work even if it means struggling. </div><div><br></div>
<div>Lifestyles are very different over here and over there. Both are good, both are amendable if you really want them to be, and they're just a matter of preference. Let's not get all bent out of shape about who gets to live where. A lot of us are where we are simply because we like it. </div>
<div><br></div><div>Great debate, though! I believe this started out as a posting for an apartment for rent. Hope that info was passed along and that the turnover is drama free.</div><div><br></div><div>Chandra<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">
On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 1:01 PM, William Craven <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:wkcraven@gmail.com" target="_blank">wkcraven@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>To Deep's "We need to build more housing", and to Tom's mention of "thousand-foot skyscrapers":</div>
<div> </div>
<div>SF needs to ramp up the conversation about Density, and increasing housing supply vertically.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Political efforts to mandate affordable housing is less likely to be an efficient driver of affordable housing supply than simply increasing the amount of living space, at any price, on the very small chunk of land that is SF. See also: Washington, DC, where zoning keeps all buildings lower than the Washington monument or something.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>SF NIMBYs like myself need to decide if we're OK tinkering with the skyline, pleasant sightlines, and homey textures which currently define the city. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>I haven't read it yet, but I think Matthew Yglesias' recent short e-book <a href="http://www.amazon.com/The-Rent-Damn-High-ebook/dp/B0078XGJXO" target="_blank">The Rent is Too Damn High</a> comes at things from this angle.<br>
<br>Will<br> </div><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 12:02 PM, Karen Nemsick <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:knemsick@yahoo.com" target="_blank">knemsick@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;PADDING-LEFT:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
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<div><span>So my intent was not to say "nah nah East Bay Rules!" It was more to make that point that while I would love to still be living in SF, I just can't (or won't) pay those prices. In comparing to the East Bay, I was saying "it doesn't have to be that way in SF." I think allowing ourselves to accept that $1700 for a studio apartment without a kitchen is okay, is giving in to the spiraling costs of living in the city. And now here's where I'll step off the pier and initiate a bigger conversation: <br>
</span></div>
<div><span>Who gets to live in San Francisco?</span></div>
<div><br><span></span></div>
<div><span>If you work in tech or banking, you can probably live in SF. If you're a teacher, nonprofit worker, retail employee, service industry worker or even a City employee, odds are that you can't afford to live in San Francisco. Is this right? You could say that this is just a capital economy at work and prices are driven by demand. But do we really want a City full of 30-40 year old singles and couples without kids with incomes over $100,000? Don't we want a city of varying professionals, of different ages, with kids and without, with lots of money and with not so much money. <br>
</span></div>
<div><br><span></span></div>
<div><span>So is the big question- "Who gets to live in SF?" OR "Who do we want to be able to live in SF?"</span></div>
<div><br><span></span></div>
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<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold">From:</span></b> Amandeep Jawa <<a href="mailto:deep@deeptrouble.com" target="_blank">deep@deeptrouble.com</a>><br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold">To:</span></b> Social Deep <<a href="mailto:social@deeptrouble.com" target="_blank">social@deeptrouble.com</a>> <br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, May 2, 2012 11:19 AM
<div>
<div><br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: SOCIAL: Fwd: [cdscommunity] Noe Valley studio apt available<br></div></div></font></div>
<div>
<div><br>Erin (& others)-<br><br>Sorry, now that I've read your post I realize that you did have interesting things to say & that calling it "all noise" was a mistake. After I read "East Bay all the way" and Karen's "After 18 years in SF I just couldn't stomach the rents anymore." I PRESUMED that this was one of those "chip on the shoulder" conversations. That being said - I do think it was heading that way. I and I'm guessing many others took one look at "East Bay all the way" & turned off.<br>
<br>Since I good conversation is being had, I'll just say my two bits:<br>- I've been alarmed at SF's rents and cost of homeownership for as long as I have lived here & it is one reason I stay politically involved. We need to build more housing.<br>
- There is cyclical nature to this struggle as booms come & go & we are in the midst of another tech boom. One should not assume however that that means that things return to "normal" between booms, they may very well spiral upwards :-(<br>
- I spend a significant amount of time worrying that SF will become a place where only people like me can afford it. That is not why I moved here.<br>- I don't want to live in the East Bay, but it would probably be my second or third choice if FORCED to leave SF. I am glad however it is there & that I know many wonderful people who live there.<br>
- I go to the East Bay often, but it is absolutely true that it is psychologically farther than it is in terms of transit reality & so I often don't.<br><br>'deep<br><br><br><br>----------------------------------<br>
Amandeep Jawa<br>----------------------------------<br>deep AT deeptrouble DOT com<br>937 Valencia St.<br>San Francisco, CA 94110-2320<br><br>personal: <a href="http://www.deeptrouble.com/" target="_blank">http://www.deeptrouble.com</a><br>
political: <a href="http://www.sflcv.org/" target="_blank">http://www.sflcv.org</a><br><br><br><br>On May 2, 2012, at 11:09 AM, jen schradie wrote:<br><br>> Funny, during one of the May Day General Strike marches yesterday in Oakland I talked to a reporter for the New York Times magazine for a half hour who is doing a feature story on "Oakland" - and his perception seemed very NY/Manhattan based - i.e. how could you live there with the murder rate so high? and what business would want to invest in downtown Oakland after Occupy? <br>
> <br>> #stereotypes go in all different directions.<br>> <br>> I consider myself much more of a Bay Area resident than an East Bay or Oakland resident - I go to school in Berkeley, used to live in SF (and love it), Chris works in Silicon Valley. One giant love fest for me.<br>
> <br>> --------------------------- j e n s c h r a d i e <br>> <br>> From: <a href="mailto:erin.milnes@comcast.net" target="_blank">erin.milnes@comcast.net</a><br>> To: <a href="mailto:allegra.hirschman@gmail.com" target="_blank">allegra.hirschman@gmail.com</a>; <a href="mailto:deep@deeptrouble.com" target="_blank">deep@deeptrouble.com</a><br>
> Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 11:01:35 -0700<br>> CC: <a href="mailto:Social@lists.deeptrouble.com" target="_blank">Social@lists.deeptrouble.com</a><br>> Subject: Re: SOCIAL: Fwd: [cdscommunity] Noe Valley studio apt available<br>
> <br>> Thanks, Allegra. Very helpful insights.<br>> <br>> Deep, the conversation was not all noise at all. Karen and I offered concrete examples of what you can get for your rent dollar in the East Bay.<br>
> <br>
> I had no idea until this thread that rents had gotten so high. I love SF, but it apparently is turning into Manhattan as far as who can live there. Maybe it’s only a problem in the ‘happening’ parts of town … what’s a studio in Exelsior go for? I’m not sure we are going to stay in the Bay Area at all, given the high cost of living and crappy schools, but for now Oakland is our best choice.<br>
> <br>> My point with “East Bay all the way” is that if you want to live in the Bay Area and affordability is a prime concern, then the East Bay is where you should look. Of course the East Bay has many fab qualities in addition to greater affordability, and SF has wonderful qualities that might encourage people to strain their budget to live there.<br>
> <br>> When I lived in SF I had lots of friends and some family in the East Bay, so I was over here all the time. But I was the exception among my SF friends. There’s no question that it’s very tough to pry most SF people out of the city even for a visit. I don’t know whether that’s fear of/discomfort with the unknown, laziness, snobbishness, simple habit, something else, all of the above. I believe it is this reluctance to cross the bay and the resulting implication/perception that the East Bay is not worthy of their time that causes many East Bay people, especially Oakland hipster/artist types, to have a chip on their shoulder about SF.<br>
> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> From: Allegra Hirschman [mailto:<a href="mailto:allegra.hirschman@gmail.com" target="_blank">allegra.hirschman@gmail.com</a>] <br>> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 10:07 AM<br>
> To: Amandeep Jawa<br>> Cc: Erin Milnes; <a href="mailto:Social@lists.deeptrouble.com" target="_blank">Social@lists.deeptrouble.com</a><br>> Subject: Re: SOCIAL: Fwd: [cdscommunity] Noe Valley studio apt available<br>
> <br>> Hey all,<br>> <br>> <br>> I think this conversation is very telling of a major tension in this city that most of us are uncomfortable discussing - the fact that basically only rich people can live here. I have seen this tension building as housing advertisements on boards around the city are consistently defaced by people who are outraged by the rent.<br>
> <br>> Even if it is all relative, I am upset by anyone reffering to this as "cheap." Someone earning minimum wage does not even bring in 1700 a month. <br>> <br>> I am also unclear on why saying the east bay is affordable is "denigrating" unless us SFers are just that programmed by our 8 dollar heirloom coffee beans to believe that something being reasonably priced makes it less than. <br>
> <br>> I don't think we can blame the person renting this studio at what is sadly, market value, for the greater issues here. I know I am very concerned that SF has the lowest percentage of children in any U.S. City and even though I always thought I would fight like hell to raise my kids here, even if i can swing it, I am not sure if I want them to only interact with children of the rich.<br>
> <br>> Deep- I appreciate you trying to keep the peace in the bay divides, but I couldn't keep my mouth shut.<br>> <br>> Allegra<br>> <br>> On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Amandeep Jawa <<a href="mailto:deep@deeptrouble.com" target="_blank">deep@deeptrouble.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> Folks -<br>> <br>> This conversation is all noise. It sheds little light, and it us difgicult for SFers to respond without sounding like we're denigrating the East Bay.<br>> <br>> Yes. There are many upsides to leaving on either side of the Bay. There are challenges to both.<br>
> <br>> 'deep<br>> <br>> Sent from my iPhone<br>> <br>> On May 2, 2012, at 8:46 AM, "Erin Milnes" <<a href="mailto:erin.milnes@comcast.net" target="_blank">erin.milnes@comcast.net</a>> wrote:<br>
> <br>> I agree – East Bay all the way. If we rented out our Oakland 2 BR, 1 BA duplex with beautiful garden & deck, 10-min walk from Lake Merritt we’d maybe get $1700.<br>> <br>> I haven’t looked at SF rents in years, but when I left Bernal in 2005, the 3BR house I lived in wasn’t going for anything comparable to this (maybe $2100?), and of course it was much harder to find roommates then, than in the pre-millennial boom. Have rents gone up this much all over SF, or is it just certain neighborhoods?<br>
> <br>> Also, I didn’t know that it was legal to rent an apartment without a stove.<br>> <br>> From: <a href="mailto:social-bounces@lists.deeptrouble.com" target="_blank">social-bounces@lists.deeptrouble.com</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:social-bounces@lists.deeptrouble.com" target="_blank">social-bounces@lists.deeptrouble.com</a>] On Behalf Of Karen Nemsick<br>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 8:01 AM<br>> To: <a href="mailto:ellisafeinstein@yahoo.com" target="_blank">ellisafeinstein@yahoo.com</a>; <a href="mailto:manish@champsee.com" target="_blank">manish@champsee.com</a><br>
> Cc: <a href="mailto:Social@lists.deeptrouble.com" target="_blank">Social@lists.deeptrouble.com</a><br>> Subject: Re: SOCIAL: Fwd: [cdscommunity] Noe Valley studio apt available<br>> <br>> We have a craftsman house in Berkeley with yard, creek and storage shed for $1925/mo. After 18 years in SF I just couldn't stomach the rents anymore.<br>
> <br>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android<br>> <br>> From: Manish Champsee <<a href="mailto:manish@champsee.com" target="_blank">manish@champsee.com</a>>; <br>> To: Ellisa Feinstein <<a href="mailto:ellisafeinstein@yahoo.com" target="_blank">ellisafeinstein@yahoo.com</a>>; <br>
> Cc: Deep social <<a href="mailto:Social@lists.deeptrouble.com" target="_blank">Social@lists.deeptrouble.com</a>>; <br>> Subject: Re: SOCIAL: Fwd: [cdscommunity] Noe Valley studio apt available <br>> Sent: Wed, May 2, 2012 6:05:33 AM<br>
> <br>> It's actually pretty cheap..if you know anyone looking, I'd tell them to jump on it. A friend has a studio in India Basin that is pet friendly that he's asking $1400 and has people willing to write a check site unseen.<br>
> <br>> Manish<br>> <br>> On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 10:25 PM, Ellisa Feinstein <<a href="mailto:ellisafeinstein@yahoo.com" target="_blank">ellisafeinstein@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br>> Wow. $1700 for a studio without a full kitchen. These rents are getting dang crazy!<br>
> <br>> From: Amy Muller <<a href="mailto:amymuller@gmail.com" target="_blank">amymuller@gmail.com</a>><br>> To: Social Social <<a href="mailto:social@deeptrouble.com" target="_blank">social@deeptrouble.com</a>> <br>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 4:27 PM<br>> Subject: SOCIAL: Fwd: [cdscommunity] Noe Valley studio apt available<br>> <br>> FYI<br>> <br>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>> From: Susan Alexander <<a href="mailto:salexandersf@gmail.com" target="_blank">salexandersf@gmail.com</a>><br>
> Date: Tue, May 1, 2012 at 3:58 PM<br>> Subject: [cdscommunity] Noe Valley studio apt available<br>> To: CDS listserv <<a href="mailto:cdscommunity@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank">cdscommunity@yahoogroups.com</a>><br>
> <br>> <br>> Hi,<br>> I'm looking for a new tenant for my sunny, spacious studio apartment with beautiful views on Hill Street.<br>> <br>> Large, cheerful studio apartment with deck and direct garden access. Full bath, carpet, two large walk-in closets. Minimal kitchen with half fridge, hot plate, and toaster oven. Great neighbors. Easy street parking and Muni access. Walking distance to Castro and to 24th Street. <br>
> No pets. No smoking.<br>> <br>> Available July 1<br>> $1700/month plus utilities<br>> <br>> Please share this with your networks. I would love to get some friend of friend in there, so I'll wait before I post on Craigslist.<br>
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